Muay Thai Versus Kung Fu Part 4: Kaoklai

•March 24, 2010 • 2 Comments

By Fatsoking

Continuing the posts of the Kung Fu Versus Muay Thai Challenge held in December 2009 Kaoklai Kaennorsing would fight his Chinese opponent,Bien Mao Fu at 80kg.

Kaoklai Kaenorsingh

A few months back a challenge was rendered allegedly from a team of Thailand’s Muay Thai camps to of all places the Shaolin Temple of Foshan, Guangdong province in China. Excerpts from the story quoted the five famous Thaiboxers as saying that they wanted to “wipe out the Shaolin Temple”. Instead however a team of Sanda fighters picked up the challenge and I offered my rant about it.

Biean Mao Fu

The rules of this bout and the entire event disallowed knee strikes to the head but allowed full Sanda rules.

Now you can see the fight between Kaoklai and Bien Mao Fu to see if the rules had anything at all to do with the fight’s outcome.

Read Part 1 of the series on Muay Thai versus Kung Fu 2009 here.

Read Part 2 of the series on Muay Thai versus Kung Fu 2009 here.

Read Part 3 of the series on Muay Thai verus Kung Fu 2009 here.

Read Part 4 of the series on Muay Thai versus Kung Fu 2009 here.

[tweetmeme source=”fatsoking”https://thescienceof8limbs.com/2010/03/24/muay-thai-versus-kung-fu-part-4-kaoklai/]

I finally joined Twitter

•March 24, 2010 • Leave a Comment

By Fatsoking

I finally broke down and joined Twitter.  Now you can follow what I’m up to on Twitter as well as here.

http://twitter.com/fatsoking

Thanks as always for reading.

Elbows – Up and down?

•March 23, 2010 • 2 Comments

By Fatsoking

With some possible opening of the rules for Amateur Muay Thai in the United States I had to wonder what would or would not be included in the new rules.

Elbow

One of my linked sites leaked that California would possibly legalize elbow strikes for amateur Muay Thai. If you haven’t checked the other sites’ links on my site please do. They’re excellent reads and I am confident you’ll find them informative and entertaining. The possible passing of a rule allowing elbows would set a new precedent that hopefully the rest of the United States will adopt in their commission and regulation of amateur Muay Thai in America. I’ve also spent some time considering the rules of Amateur Muay Thai especially given the World Amateur Muay Thai Championship happenings in Thailand right now. But anyone who’s even got some passing knowledge of Muay Thai knows that Muay Thai without elbows really isn’t Muay Thai at all.

Why so much concern over the elbow strike? Because the elbow strike can be one of if not the most dangerous striking offense in a ring sport. In a review of basic physics: Force is found to be Mass X Acceleration. The elbow being the contact point accelerated along the torque of the body. Because of the relative sharpness and hardness of the point of contact the elbow strike is correctly regarded as the hardest hitting strike from the waist up in combat sports. As such the scrutiny and concern associated with elbow strikes among sports regulatory bodies is understandable. But the ignorance regarding elbow strikes needs clearing up as well.

A review of the rules set forth by the California Athletic State Commission shows that the downward elbow is illegal. How did this rule come to be and what’s the logic behind it? That requires some history review. It’s been said but never confirmed that one of the original authors of the rule witnessed a classical martial arts demonstration in which the demonstrator smashed through blocks of ice using the infamous downward (otherwise known as the 12-6) elbow strike.

What really did happen is at the time former New Jersey State Athletic Commissioner, Larry Hazzard and former Nevada State Commissioner and now UFC employee, Mark Ratner put together Unified Rules for MMA which would ultimately impact how Muay Thai is also competed in, in the United States. It should be noted this was at Larry Hazzard’s prompting to clarify rules after an incident involving downward elbow strikes at a seminal IFC show held in New Jersey. Apparently the appointed physician for the event was displeased at what he saw. And what the physician saw was downward elbow strikes to an opponent’s head. The significance is that Nevada and New Jersey generally set the precedents for most notable state athletic commissions and other states generally follow suit and currently downward elbow strikes are not allowed any where in any combat sport that I know of in the United States. New Jersey and Nevada could be considered the de facto standard any respectable state athletic commissions pattern themselves after.

Larry Hazzard Sr., Former New Jersey State Athletic Commissioner

Mixed Martial Arts popularity and growth seems to have most influence in elbow strikes regulation not only in California but in the United States as well. By no means would I downplay the efforts of dedicated Muay Thai competitors, coaches and teachers who have fought for full rules in America at all levels including at the professional level but its clear the better known entity of MMA is what truly pushed rules for combat sports in general being more open to the techniques of Muay Thai. While non 12-6 elbow strikes are allowed in MMA events in Nevada (the biggest example being the UFC) they aren’t in California (the biggest example being Strikeforce).

Most elbow strikes I’ve seen in MMA that are actually effective are from the ground where a top fighter strikes down towards a mounted opponent. Standing I find the majority of MMA fighters and quite a lot of western Thaiboxers as well throw an elbow out of range and almost always at way too wide of an arc to be effective nevermind damaging. But in regards to safety is a downward elbow strike that much more damaging than a crossing elbow? Or any other elbow strike? To be perfectly honest I wasn’t sure so I did what anyone else would do: I consulted a physician.

This Elbow Strike is illegal in California amateur Muay Thai

For the physician’s answer I found Dr.Johnny Benjamin. Dr.Benjamin is member of the Association of Boxing Commissions’ MMA Medical Subcommittee and consultant and a noted combat-sports specialist. This is Dr.Benjamin’s response when asked if a downward elbow is more dangerous than any other kind of elbow strike.

An elbow strike delivered by a grounded fighter from a 12-o’clock position is not significantly more or less dangerous than a blow delivered from an 11-o’clock position. Furthermore, with mounted fighters intelligently defending themselves by squirming, switching hips, covering up, etc., it is an extremely difficult rule to enforce properly . I emphasize the phrase intelligently defending because if a fighter is unable to do so, as per the rules, the fight should be halted.
The theoretical concern from a medical viewpoint is the blow pinning the head to the ground, and therefore, not allowing the body/neck to effectively dissipate the force.
I believe that all elbows to legal areas of the head of a grounded opponent should be considered legal. It could then be more uniformly enforced by the referee. The ref would consider if the area of the strike was legal (not back of the head, etc.), if the recipient is intelligently defending himself, and whether the recipient sustained too much damage to allow the fight to continue.
That being said, an elbow strike delivered by a grounded fighter from a 12-o’clock position is not significantly more or less dangerous than a blow delivered from an 11-o’clock position. Furthermore, with mounted fighters intelligently defending themselves by squirming, switching hips, covering up, etc., it is an extremely difficult rule to enforce properly . I emphasize the phrase intelligently defending because if a fighter is unable to do so, as per the rules, the fight should be halted.

I realize getting elbow strikes allowed at all for amateur Muay Thai in California would be a watermark triumph to begin with but I do wish the United States would consider more carefully allowing downward elbow strikes as well. It seems logical that a combat sport specialized Physician’s opinion should probably have more consideration than hyperbole and ice breaking demonstrations. The California State Athletic Commission while not as influential as either New Jersey or Nevada’s commissions can and does influence commission conduct of other states. And for the United States,  California is really the busiest and among the best in Muay Thai. I am hopeful that California allows the downward technique along with elbow strikes for amateurs. If and when it does I hope the other states’ adopt it as well. Thanks again for reading.

Muay Thai Versus Kung Fu 2009 part 3: Naruepon Fairtex

•March 23, 2010 • 1 Comment

By Fatso King

Continuing the posts of the Kung Fu Versus Muay Thai Challenge held in December 2009 Narepon Fairtex would fight his Chinese opponent, Liu Ceng Ceng at 70 kg.

A few months back a challenge was rendered allegedly from a team of Thailand’s Muay Thai camps to of all places the Shaolin Temple of Foshan, Guangdong province in China. Excerpts from the story quoted the five famous Thaiboxers as saying that they wanted to “wipe out the Shaolin Temple”. Instead however a team of Sanda fighters picked up the challenge and I offered my rant about it.

Liu Ceng Ceng

The rules of this bout and the entire event disallowed knee strikes to the head but allowed full Sanda rules.

Now you can see the fight between Naruepon and his opponent and reach your own conclusions about it.

Read Part 1 of the series on Muay Thai versus Kung Fu 2009 here.

Read Part 2 of the series on Muay Thai versus Kung Fu 2009 here.

Read Part 3 of the series on Muay Thai verus Kung Fu 2009 here.

Read Part 4 of the series on Muay Thai versus Kung Fu 2009 here.

Muay Thai Versus Kung Fu 2009 part 2: Enter Big Ben

•March 23, 2010 • Leave a Comment

By Fatsoking

Thanks for coming by as promised the 65 KG fight of Big Ben Chor Pramam Versus Dong Wen Fei is here.

Team China

Continuing with the uploaded fights from the first post about the Muay Thai Versus Sanda fights of 2009 I have added Big Ben.  Without offering too much of a spoiler it looks like Big Ben’s time in Shootboxing served him well. Big Ben actually knocked out a Shootboxing S-Cup champion in Kenji Ogata at one time.

Team Thailand

All fights were conducted under highly modified rules with padded elbows and prevented knee strikes to the head.  As for the refereeing and subjective judging I’ll leave it to you to come to your own conclusion in terms of fairness maintained in this event.

More videos of this event will be available  as I upload and post.  Thanks for reading.

Read Part 1 of the series on Muay Thai versus Kung Fu 2009 here.

Read Part 2 of the series on Muay Thai versus Kung Fu 2009 here.

Read Part 3 of the series on Muay Thai verus Kung Fu 2009 here.

Read Part 4 of the series on Muay Thai versus Kung Fu 2009 here.

Muay Thai World Amateurs Championships 2010

•March 22, 2010 • 9 Comments

By Fatsoking

The second World Amateur Muay Thai Championship in Bangkok started yesterday despite antigovernment protests still continuing.  The World Amateur Muay Thai Championship organizers have even gone so far as to say they would invite the protesters to attend the event free of charge.

Amateur Thaiboxers.

The event opened with some of the all time Muay Thai greats performing at the opening ceremony including Khaosai Galaxy, Samart Payakaroon and Somluck Kamsing. Despite turmoil surrounding demonstrations from anti-government supporters the event still drew avid attention from visiting foreigners as well as the people of Bangkok.

The championship is seeing participation of 200 male and 56 female athletes, 45 trainers, 40 officials from various countries and 60 observers.

The Muay Thai event, hosted by Thailand’s Department of Physical Education, has intentionally excluded participation of any of the rivaling Muay Thai associations of the country to avoid potential conflicts.

Coinciding with this the World Muay Thai Council is mounting efforts once again to get International Olympic Committee (IOC) recognition for the sport of Muay Thai in hopes of getting Muay Thai entry as an Olympic Sport.  Among some of the more spirited speeches Chettha Thanajaro offered this:

“Muay Thai is ready for the Olympics,” Gen Chettha Thanajaro, president of the World Muaythai Council (WMC), said at a recent workshop titled Muay Thai Towards Olympic Recognition.

Gen Chetta Thanajaro added: “We have received the Royal support of His Royal Highness Crown Prince.”

All good rhetoric but the reality of it is that there are 60 IOC-recognised sports none of which have made an entry into the Olympics either including Basque pelota, tug of war, floorball, netball, sumo, water skiing, lifesaving and surfing. And with the IOC actively cutting sports from the Olympics Muay Thai’s inclusion seems less than likely. There is in fact a movement by the Olympics staff to reduce sports from their programs as a necessity to even complete programs on time.

While adding Muay Thai to the Olympic Sports is certainly a laudable effort I personally question if it really does much for Muay Thai at all.  Muay Thai came to prominence and wider spread practice through rugged ring sport and proven effectiveness adapted even in mixed martial arts. I can see a future for Muay Thai as Olympic sport that has essentially reduced the western boxing version to point tag. Olympic boxing is analogous to point sparring in karate as a contact sport. I would dread to see Muay Thai becoming that even as an amateur sport.  Even more cause for alarm should be the WMC’s involvement with an at best spotty record as a commission. Though to be fair in my linked sources Stephen Fox’s name is not mentioned any where.

In my opinion a desire to see Muay Thai in the Olympics does more harm than good.  In exchange for the recognition Muay Thai will be forced to sacrifice its very terminology to even be considered by the IOC. Specifically at issue is the word “Thai” which denotes Muay Thai’s nation of origin: Thailand, something specifically against IOC rules. Thailand and its culture is the core of Muay Thai’s origins and even in its current existence. If that is what lies in wait for Muay Thai as an IOC recognized sport it can hardly be considered a step forward for Muay Thai since it won’t even be called that.

For the sake of consideration let us assume that the WMC and their amateur branch International Federation of Muay Thai Amateur (IFMA )succeed at getting the IOC to recognize Muay Thai.  If the IOC bid does succeed Muay Thai won’t be called Thaiboxing, Muay Thai or Muay Siam or basically anything that is integral to Muay Thai, it’s nation of origin.  Is it really worth it to get Muay Thai recognized as an Olympic Sport on the IFMA 2 year plan of action? When what you’re losing is a name instantly recognizable as Thailand’s national combat sport reknown for it’s rich Thai heritage and effectiveness? And if it’s not called Muay Thai what will it be called?  It would seem that it couldn’t be called kickboxing.  As host to the first Asian Martial Art Games kickboxing was recognized as it’s own unique sport and provided a separate category from Muay Thai and WuShu.

The attempt to get around this rule has been made: combining Muay Thai to a singular word ‘muaythai’ and removing the grammar rules of capitalization.  But even with the name “Muay Thai” made lower case and combined into a single compound word does anyone honestly have any doubts to what the ‘thai’ portion of ‘muaythai’ means? I forsee a 2 year overture made by the WMC that is going to prove  futile and ultimately meaningless.  And I am positive  I’m going to get  an even larger barrage of hatemail than usual for saying it but I’m glad for it.  And I won’t outright block or delete responses.

Muay Thai is a Thai sport and art.  Muay Thai is one of the most rugged ring sports in the world.  I see little to nothing to gain by turning it into an IOC recognized and watered down version of itself.

Let me know what you think.  Thanks for reading.


Muay Thai Versus Kung Fu + Rant

•March 21, 2010 • 12 Comments

by Fatso King

Naruepon Versus Liu Ceng Ceng

A few months back a challenge was rendered allegedly from a team of Thailand’s Muay Thai camps to of all places the Shaolin Temple of Foshan, Guangdong province in China. Excerpts from the story quoted the five famous Thaiboxers as saying that they wanted to “wipe out the Shaolin Temple”. Needless to say the Shaolin Temple was quoted to have said they tired of being bombarded by fight challenges and were not interested in taking challenges from secular fighters. The challenge was summarily declined. Continue reading ‘Muay Thai Versus Kung Fu + Rant’

The First Science of 8 Limbs Week in Review: 3-19-2010

•March 19, 2010 • Leave a Comment

By Fatsoking

After much thought I have decided to launch The Week in Review column to do a quick one week compilation of news and notables here at The Science of 8 Limbs.  This should make it easier to follow stories in their continuity.  It should also give a fast and easy week ending review of notable stuff here.  So without further ado let’s christen this one.

Today the Z-1 Muay Thai series final card was revealed featuring Wes Jaya and Leo Monteiro.

March 17th and 18th a the completed Better Late Than Never series highlighted 3 bouts at Lumpinee Versus Rajadamnern event.

On March 17th Sanchai’s American debut hit the internet.

On March 16th The Apocalix card is announced in Italy featuring Kem Sitsongpeenong

On March 14th MSA announced bringing the biggest Muay Thai card to the UK ever.

Followups to all these events will be posted later.  Leave me comments on whether you like this sort of round up or not too.  Thanks for reading!

Z-1 World Muay Thai Series Final 2010

•March 19, 2010 • 5 Comments

By Fatso King

Fellow bloggers  at Box Tomoi have shared some news with me!  The final for the Z-1 series final is coming up fast March 27, 2010.  I shared the news of the 3 weight category full rules Muay thai tournament here. Z-1 is one of the few tournaments to break with tradition and actually have more than the typical 8 man 2 tier setup in 2 very significant ways.  It 0ffered 3 different weight categories and the tourney was deep in truly international talent.

Headlining the Z-1 final card will be Wes Jaya who I had the pleasure of interviewing prior.  Along with Leo ‘Amendoim’ Monteiro. The two co-main events are:

63.5 kg Leo ‘Amendoim’ Monterio (Brazil) Vs. Abbas Ahmadi (Boxx Warriors, Malaysia)

67 kg Wes Jaya (Boxx Warriors, Malaysia) Vs. Wuttichai S. Tuptimsakeson (Thailand)

Z-1 2010 Final

The rest of the card includes 4 superfights:

Super Fight 1 – Fauzan Zabidi (Boxx Warriors) Vs. Abuza (Malaysian Tigers)

Super Fight 2 – Iddi Selandang Kuning (Boxx Warriors Ampang) Vs. Zidov Akuma (Croatia)

Super Fight 3 – Bow Sowailek (Boxx Warriors, Thailand) Vs. Behzad Rafigdosdt (Iran)

Super Fight 4 – Firdaus Janai (Boxx Warriors) Vs. Thomas Sidyumlang (Thailand)

Z-1 Final poster

Z-1 Final poster

The Z-1 Final teaser looks good! Good luck to all the fighters.

Here’s some press about the upcoming event too.




File Under: Better Late Than Never? Part 2

•March 18, 2010 • Leave a Comment

By Fatso King

Here is the remainder of the fights I have from the Lumpinee versus Rajadamnern Super Show!  Enjoy and you can find the other fight here. If you want to go way back to the original post about the historic Super Show you can read about it here.

 

You can view the first fight here.